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Myrna Gönnemann (00:00)
Hello and welcome to a new episode of Business Insights. In this podcast, we from the TYPO3 team talk with exciting guests from the community, from agencies, partner companies and projects about topics that move us as an open-source system and as a community. I'm Myrna Gönnemann and I work in Success Management at TYPO3 GmbH. In this episode, we look at the question of how agencies can scale internally. Specifically, how to build a new business unit within your own company without primarily relying on new hires. And for that, I have two special guests with me today, Jan Suchandt and Nick Bartlitz from our partner agency 3m5. Together, the two of them helped build the TYPO3 Business Unit at 3m5. Today it comprises around 30 colleagues, from apprentices to senior devs. In this episode, we talked about how to grow such a unit organically, why mentoring and internal community often achieve more than classic recruiting and how certifications have become almost a sporting competition for them. We also look at what mistakes they made along the way, what they would do differently today, and what role artificial intelligence is currently playing for young talent in the industry. So join Jan, Nick and me for a conversation about scaling from within, community as a success factor, and the future of nurturing young talent. Enjoy listening!

Hi Jan, hi Nick, great to have you here, or rather, great that I get to be here in your lovely office. Today we're talking, in a sense, about scaling within your own company, specifically about founding a new business unit of your own. That's exactly what you did at 3m5, with a TYPO3 unit, and that's what I want to talk to you about today. Great to have you here.

Jan Suchandt (02:00)
Great that you're here. Great that we have the chance to talk to you today about the topic.

Myrna Gönnemann (02:04)
I'd say let's dive right into the first question. How does one even come up with the idea of founding your own business unit within an agency? And where did you see the need for it?

Jan Suchandt (02:15)
This isn't really something that happens overnight ... it grew with us over a longer period of time. On the one hand it's naturally down to the logical customer demand the technical expertise we've had from the start. And a concrete example with TYPO3 it's simply in our DNA. So we recognized relatively early on that there was a need for an enterprise content management system here in our region as well as nationwide in Germany, and we positioned ourselves accordingly relatively quickly.

Myrna Gönnemann (02:42)
And how big is your TYPO3 unit and how is it organized? So what do the roles look like, or is it embedded somewhere, is it independent?

Nick Bartlitz (02:50)
Our TYPO3 unit comprises about 30 people, organized fairly freely. It's basically an interdisciplinary team from apprentices all the way to typical TYPO3 developers, to UI/UX experts, or among others also project leads. Fundamentally we have a lively exchange on Slack. That's of course our main channel where we exchange ideas. We've organized regular internal roundtables where we all basically come together and share all the ideas and that we've gathered over the weeks, so we can exchange them among ourselves. Then of course there's moderation and organization by our colleagues Tim and Jan, but it's of course also open to all other participants and anyone interested from other areas, because it's also important here that we foster exchange between the units or between other departments within the agency.

Myrna Gönnemann (03:42)
So that means Tim and Jan are kind of like unit leads for you.

Jan Suchandt (03:44)
Yes, that's sort of crystallized over time. We naturally try to organize ourselves fairly autonomously. In particular, we try to foster engagement and ambition. And Tim especially, who's still relatively new to TYPO3, stood out relatively quickly by being very engaged with us, both internally and externally. And took on a lot of responsibility, in particular organizing things like the internal roundtables we hold regularly, keeping things up to date, right through to organizing how we do certification, and generally having that drive and activating people and simply having joy in developing with TYPO3.

Myrna Gönnemann (04:19)
And how does it look for you in the unit when it comes to customer acquisition and sales? Do you handle that yourselves within the unit, or is it organized across units for you?

Jan Suchandt (04:30)
Both, really. We naturally try to guide the developers and project leads from within the existing unit, or generally the people who deal with TYPO3 and the clients, a bit in the direction that they naturally stand behind TYPO3 and communicate that proactively to our clients and together — and I think this is the best case — develop ideas together with the client that we can then feed back into TYPO3. So basically, make it your own project and get involved wherever you can. I think our clients particularly appreciate that especially because we don't draw a fixed line there, saying that a developer isn't allowed to talk to the client or voice ideas. Our clients like that a lot. We get quite a lot of positive feedback on that.

Myrna Gönnemann (05:10)
Do you have a strategic positioning alongside the technology, so beyond TYPO3 itself, or do you perhaps focus on specific industries or specific client requirement profiles?

Jan Suchandt (05:21)
Technologically we're fairly open. Of course TYPO3 is one of our biggest units. But we also have completely different technology units. Our Java unit is very strong, for example, but also other content management systems like Neos, for instance, ... is also supported by us. We try to stay ... open when it comes to technology, to offer clients a broad portfolio. In terms of industries, we've noticed ... over the last few years that we've naturally ... served specific industries. We're limiting ourselves through that though, ... and we're now trying ... to become a bit more active beyond that, saying ... we're not just focusing on hidden champions, ... but also on big players ... as well as smaller clients. Simply so that we have a nicely ... diversified client portfolio.

Myrna Gönnemann (06:01)
You just mentioned the other units. How does the TYPO3 unit relate to the other tech units at your company? So is there some kind of competitive pressure between you, or do you learn from each other?

Nick Bartlitz (06:13)
Right, that's of course an interesting question. There is a certain healthy competitive spirit, I'd say. But mainly we learn from and with each other. That's, I think, also an important point and an important factor that one should make use of. And I think in connection with ... the healthy competitive spirit, but also ... the lively exchange that we naturally ... maintain between the units, we're really well positioned there and we've ... also learned in the past ... ... from certain impulses that came from the other units, and we were able to ... apply that to our TYPO3 unit, for example, ... ... and were able to use those developments ... or various things for ourselves.

Myrna Gönnemann (06:51)
Has there already been movement between units, or from one unit to another, at your company?

Jan Suchandt (06:56)
Well, we naturally try to keep that fairly open, because we know we can naturally, even if the need is sometimes there and, for example, more TYPO3 client projects are coming up, ... we don't force developers to use certain solutions or technologies. However, we've found, by having a fairly open culture, that we, among ourselves — and this is the case with most projects anyway — it's usually not just one solution, but various technologies come into play, whether that's interfaces, or connections to shop systems, being open to that. The advantage of course is that we can cover much, much more that way of the clients' wishes and needs, by saying, it's simply a topic, you can work your way into it, ... you work your way into HubSpot, for example and then such a switch naturally comes about sometimes, but we actually try to encourage that, because it enriches our portfolio.

Myrna Gönnemann (07:43)
When you built up the TYPO3 unit back then, did you hire new people, or did it simply develop organically, in that you could put existing colleagues there because they'd always worked on TYPO3 projects anyway?

Nick Bartlitz (07:56)
That was the case from the very start; it grew, as Jan mentioned before, fairly organically. We didn't hire people directly for it. The people who were interested basically put their hand up and said, here, I'm in, I have ideas, I have input I'd like to bring in. And that's how the unit gradually crystallized. You could then see which people were engaged and a small base formed and from there we expanded further and organized the whole thing more. As Jan also mentioned, Jan and Tim then became a bit like the organizers of the whole thing, and that's how we were able to build it up and grow it fairly organically.

Jan Suchandt (08:31)
I think that was still before Nick's time. Actually, as far as I know, in the nine to ten years I've been at 3m5, we've hired one TYPO3 developer. That also means our unit is naturally quite large, and now the question of course is, if we don't hire developers, how can we build up that kind of expertise and unit in terms of skills? One reason is that we take our young talent and our training program very, very seriously and support it a lot. That starts with the mentoring program, when someone joins us — the strong willingness to help within TYPO3 or our unit all the way through to final coaching. So with us, it's never the case that a developer ... or an employee or an apprentice ... is left alone there's always a point of contact ... at any time. And I think that's also a reason why we don't really have the need to say we're specifically looking for TYPO3 developers or hiring TYPO3 developers, because I think our training program is very, very solid.

Myrna Gönnemann (09:25)
because you just brought this up, the topic of nurturing young talent, and that's also a topic that's not just close to my heart, but is generally a big deal at our company and in our community too. And Nick, you were, for example, at this year's TYPO3 Surfcamp, which is our official event for nurturing young talent. So I'm genuinely curious how you approach this topic of TYPO3 among young people. How do you manage, in your TYPO3 unit, to get people interested in it, to get young talent interested in a content management system?

Nick Bartlitz (10:00)
That's of course an important topic. A big point for us. I think one of the most important factors, which we've naturally been pursuing for years, ... is bringing new people directly into real projects. On top of that, something that works very well, and that's also how it was done with me back then, is finding modern features within the software. For example, in my case back then it was, for example, the Form framework in TYPO3 and that helps you get ahead faster. You immediately have a modern area where you can, let's say, specialize and try things out first, without immediately being overwhelmed by the whole scope that TYPO3, for example, offers. And that has worked pretty well in practice. On top of that, as Jan mentioned, we naturally have the mentoring or a coaching program, where basically every new developer with us or anyone joining various sub-projects gets a mentor. And it's simply about helping with problems or questions and supporting people. In addition, we naturally have a helpful TYPO3 unit. So you're never alone when you're facing any kind of problem. And in addition, as you already mentioned, you also had the Surfcamp, which I got to attend this year. And that's where we also try to encourage colleagues to take part in events, to identify better with TYPO3, if applicable. For me, a big point or a big turning point was the Surfcamp, because I realized, okay, the community is really great, the community is open, nobody's head gets bitten off if you happen to say something wrong. People help you, impulses are given here facing various problems, and I think it's a similar thing for us. And we naturally try to introduce people here as well as possible. Of course it's not always the case that people then say, okay, this is great, this is what we should be doing. It might also just not be my area, where I really want to go. That's also fair, because it's also important to find out for yourself what you might not want to do. That happens too. And that's of course also supported. That's not a problem at all. And I think that creates an ecosystem where everyone can basically find their place and the whole thing grows organically.

Myrna Gönnemann (12:09)
You just brought up the topic of events. How do you handle non-billable time? So time that goes into things like being present at events, but also things like studying for certifications, contributing to open source projects, or similar. That's time you may have to defend, because it simply isn't economically productive. How do you handle that in your unit?

Jan Suchandt (12:33)
Well, we're very, very lucky there, because we've been active in TYPO3 for so many years, that we have the full backing of management. Of course it's clear that we do have times we need to justify to management, but that's communicated fairly openly. For certification, for example, everyone has an individual budget depending on which certification it is. For a TYPO3 Developer certification, naturally more preparation time is needed than, say, for the BE Editor one, simply due to the scope. And we also use events not just to show presence but above all to strengthen the junior talent, to get new people excited too. So we really try to bring along people who are coming into contact with TYPO3 for the first time and to convince junior developers how great the community is. In particular, we also learn an enormous amount at events, which we always try to bring back with us. So for us it's absolutely normal that when we attend events, in-house we then naturally follow up on those events, give presentations, basically show people what we learned and share that knowledge too. So basically, management—we can be very grateful there — gives us a lot of tailwind on that.

Myrna Gönnemann (13:40)
So that's basically your return on investment from the events themselves.

Jan Suchandt (13:43)
Exactly, we're also aware that other units show this too, and I think we still need to work on that a bit more in our unit, that of course you can also win clients through events and talks ... and through visibility. That already happens with us in some units and that's basically the point we're currently working on, going out more, giving bigger talks, showing presence again, and thereby reaching clients too. We know that works, and yes, that's the next return on investment we're aiming for.

Myrna Gönnemann (14:10)
I find that really exciting, because it's a topic we have very often too, that talks at events, including industry events like TYPO3 conferences or similar, are simply a certain reference point you can point to in client acquisition. And that's of course a certain trust factor you can bring along. That's a really exciting approach, I think it's great that your management goes along with that and supports it positively. I'd like to come back to the topic of certifications. You touched on that briefly. How do you integrate that into your everyday work? Is it a mandatory requirement for you to do certifications? Is that just within the TYPO3 Business Unit, or is it a cross-company topic for you too?

Jan Suchandt (14:54)
Well, of course certification is always, I'd say, a fairly exciting topic, because it naturally comes with effort, and there's of course budget attached, and that's why it was actually quite hard for us at the beginning to get people excited about it. By now we've reached the point—I think it was like a snowball effect we had — where the people who got certified basically spurred each other on. There were even competitions at times over who had more certificates. And we hit that one point where it eventually took on a life of its own. In that case, it's now such that even people who have nothing to do with the solution, with the unit, are already keen to get certificates. And of course it's clear that we reward that. I believe there's a small bonus for a certificate that management pays out. That's of course also a factor that plays into it. But I think the biggest point, as I said, is that we celebrate it ourselves and present it to each other, and present to management how many certificates we've earned and when. The latest goal right now is that we want to have the "Quadrupel." So the triple was yesterday. Now the goal is that all four have the certificate.

Myrna Gönnemann (15:54)
I find that really exciting, because I think the approach of a competition — as long as it's not toxic somewhere, but really a fun, motivating competition, when you have that gamification factor in it — is a really great approach to actually getting people certified. And that ultimately also leads to better projects, no matter where, and to motivation among employees in general, not just because the certification is done.

Nick Bartlitz (16:20)
That's true. On top of that, as Jan mentioned, it's also gotten people outside of TYPO3, or outside our TYPO3 unit, excited. And I think that's an important factor too, motivating people outside this area, maybe encouraging them to take a look at TYPO3 after all. And that again ties back to saying our TYPO3 unit brings value, there's a generic exchange across the units too, and it grows and it motivates people.

Myrna Gönnemann (16:44)
Yes, as I said, that motivation that comes from it is of course a great thing too. It's a bit like back in school, when you did really well on an exam. It's just, it's just a thing that motivates, it's great that you've found a system there that works for you. Is that really only in the TYPO3 Business Unit for you, or is it cross-company too? Are there certifications that have to be done in other systems, in other units at all?

Jan Suchandt (17:08)
Well, TYPO3 is of course just one example. There are various certificates we offer here, some of it comes out of a specific need, because we say, for example, we want to and are allowed to engage with a certain solution. That's actually fairly open, so it's not limited to one unit. What we're currently working on, and this is actually driven internally, by colleagues, is the whole topic of AI. Partly because we of course want to stay on top of things, want to inform ourselves and know where things are heading. And that's a really exciting topic right now. And that's also, again, something that actually arose from within, in that we say, okay, it's not imposed top-down, but it comes from within and I think that's the point why it works so well and healthily for us.

Myrna Gönnemann (17:44)
A completely different topic. What did you get wrong when building the business unit? What would you do differently if you were starting a unit from scratch again now?

Jan Suchandt (17:55)
That's a really exciting question. When I joined 3m5 almost nine and a half years ago, there was already a small unit. We actually had very, very strong initial difficulties, because we got too caught up in technological and technical details, and met a huge amount, talked a huge amount. But we never really managed to get an outcome out of it or get people excited, because we oriented ourselves too much around conventions and requirements. But then we noticed that it's not about setting standards and establishing standards in development or in the units, but about involving and activating people. One measure, for example, was that we know the learning curve for TYPO3 is steep, and we try to find measures to flatten that learning curve. Whether that's just mentoring, whether it's a lively exchange around what we learn during certification, or simply fostering communication as such.

Myrna Gönnemann (18:43)
If I were an agency and wanted to start a unit now, what would be the three tips you'd give me?

Jan Suchandt (18:51)
What works really well for us is basically showing presence, showing openness to technology, involvement, getting people excited. If you do good things, you should talk about it, definitely, and also being brave. Another thing I can definitely recommend is to reach out to the community. We did that far too little for far too long. Go to events, get to know people, overcome your fear, basically. The people you meet are all super cool and all in it wholeheartedly. And that gives you a completely different kind of motivation than when you're basically just working for TYPO3, or for this unit, for yourself alone.

Myrna Gönnemann (19:25)
What does AI look like in everyday developer life for you? Does that make certifications more important for you or less important? How do you integrate that?

Nick Bartlitz (19:32)
It's of course a big and very important topic right now. We find that certification becomes even more important in the context of AI. You have to understand how the software works. In order to make the best possible use of AI and its advantages, it's important to have an understanding of how the software you're working with actually functions. You have to be able to validate the things you produce with it yourself. You have to know how you arrive at certain results, what the path there looks like, and how you can make that path work and for that, the knowledge is simply necessary.

Jan Suchandt (20:04)
That's of course an extremely exciting topic. I think a lot of agencies or IT service providers would say the same. There's a certain uncertainty in the air and there was also a lot of exchange among us about how we can approach the topic, how we respond to it, whether the whole topic is even just a bubble. I think the discussions that a lot of agencies or managing directors have had for us it was the case that we quickly realized we don't sell lines of code or variables, but we sell solutions, and the discussions around that, why we all love IT in the first place isn't because we enjoy typing, but because we like finding solutions to problems and the best solutions can only be found with expertise, and that's the point where AI maybe can write code faster, but finding the right solution, whether that's with TYPO3 or with other frameworks or other solutions, requires know-how, and you can only build that know-how by engaging intensively with the topic. Certification is of course then a great way to build exactly that expertise, and I think that's more important now than ever.

Myrna Gönnemann (21:03)
I just had a really exciting discussion on one of my other podcasts about the topic of AI in relation to juniors. There was a thesis on the table about how the role of juniors is currently changing, because a lot of these routine and research tasks are being taken over by AI tools, and that this is basically eating away a huge chunk of the workload that used to go to juniors

How do you see that, and what's your take on it? How do you deal with it, and how do you integrate juniors at your company? I know you've touched on this a bit already, but how do you keep the junior pipeline running, so that there's always enough integration into projects, without these tasks already being completely taken over by AI tools?

Jan Suchandt (21:52)
I think there's quite a lot of uncertainty around this. We found a way to basically say we know that with AI you're fast and you get results. But if you don't know what you're doing, you naturally can't learn anything from it either. That's why there was a huge amount of exchange about this, with the juniors themselves, with the seniors, and with the people who already use AI very heavily. And we found that AI has another advantage that people like to keep quiet about, namely that you can also learn really well with AI. So you put together a solution, talk it over with your senior, and then go through it together with the AI to figure out what actually happened there, why the solution turned out that way, what this piece of code is, or whether there might be a better solution. So it's not just a one-way street, using AI to produce code or solutions, but you can also flip it around and say, okay, AI can also be a great helper in finding good solution paths, or in growing from the solutions produced and learning from them.

Nick Bartlitz (22:48)
I'd like to add something to that too. So the thesis was basically that a lot of juniors' areas of work are disappearing. As you said, research tasks and all the fairly trivial things. And I actually believe that juniors are more important than ever right now, precisely to grow together with this technology, because the market now has an ever-growing gap of people who can actually apply AI and are also technically deep in it, and can build entire systems with AI. or act as an architect for entire systems, workflows and processes. I think the need there is quite large, and above all, very well filled by juniors, who are of course just coming in fresh, to take on that area and build it up. And I think that's why juniors are even more important right now.

Myrna Gönnemann (23:37)
I think that was quite a lot of input. Thank you both so much for this great recording. I hope we'll talk again soon, and thanks for taking the time.

Nick Bartlitz (23:49)
Of course, very gladly.

Myrna Gönnemann (28:27)
Ciao!