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[00:00] Myrna Gönnemann: Hello and a warm welcome to a new episode of Business Insights. In this podcast, the TYPO3 team talks with exciting guests from the community, agencies, partner companies, and projects about topics that move us as an open-source system and as a community. I am Myrna Gönnemann, and I work in Success Management at TYPO3 GmbH. Today, we are talking about the topic of the skilled labor shortage and the question: How and where do you actually find the best people for your team? Because in the end, only one thing should matter when recruiting: professional qualifications, not a passport. To discuss this topic, I am joined today by Tobias Bühne from the Düsseldorf-based web agency NETO. As owner and managing director, Tobias hires the people who are the best fit both professionally and personally, regardless of where they come from. One source of support for this approach is the project Hand in Hand for International Talents. And even though recruiting international talent is often complicated by bureaucracy and constantly changing regulations, he is not discouraged by it. Today, we will talk in detail about how this process works in practice. Tobias shares his experiences with bureaucratic hurdles, but also with very practical challenges such as the housing market, where they had to contact around 70 shared apartments to find accommodation for a new colleague. We also discuss why the first visit to a government office together can be an incredibly powerful bonding experience, why traditional hiring tests no longer work in the age of AI, and why mutual honesty is the most important foundation in recruitment from the very beginning. In addition, we talk about the great responsibility involved when people leave their entire lives behind on the other side of the world for a job opportunity.

I would say let's jump straight into the conversation and enjoy listening.

[01:58] Myrna Gönnemann: Hello, Tobias. It's great to have you here.

[02:00] Tobias Bühne: Yes.

[02:01] Myrna Gönnemann: Today we're diving straight into a topic that is crucial for Germany's future: international skilled workers. You took this step yourself and worked closely with the Hand in Hand project. Today, we're going to walk through the entire journey—from the first contact to the bureaucratic hurdles involved. The first question that immediately comes to mind is: How did you come up with the idea of focusing on international talent when searching for new employees?

[02:33] Tobias Bühne: It was ultimately born out of necessity. We've been dealing with a shortage of skilled workers for quite some time and have always tried to compensate through training and apprenticeships, which we've been doing since 2006. But sometimes you simply need more staff, more qualified people, and individuals who already have some experience beyond what apprentices and junior employees can offer. The turning point came about ten years ago when someone applied to us for an apprenticeship. He came from Spain but was originally from Bolivia. I wanted to hire him, but the employment agency told me, “No, you can't hire him because he's not a European citizen.” At the time, there were regulations that had to be followed. If there was a suitable candidate with a passport from a European Union country, that person had to be given priority. That really annoyed me because I believe I should be able to hire the best person for the job, not the person with the right passport. So I said, “If I'm not allowed to hire him and you're telling me who I can hire, then I won't hire anyone at all.” That didn't help much in practical terms. I ended up not hiring anyone. It may have been good for my ego, but it also made me determined to find a solution. We then did everything we could to make it possible for him to work with us. Together, we worked on getting him naturalized in Spain, where he was living at the time. Once he became a Spanish citizen, we were finally able to hire him. The crazy thing was that as soon as we hired him, he suddenly became eligible for all sorts of benefits—free trips home, language support, and various EU-funded programs. The exact same person had not been allowed to work for us a year earlier. We eventually hired him a year later and were very happy with that decision. After that experience, we decided that nationality didn't matter. I became fascinated by the topic and realized that it worked. We stopped focusing on passports and language skills. Of course, our international colleagues need to learn German, but what matters to us is professional quality, motivation, and whether someone fits into the team. That's why we decided to follow this path, even though it's more complicated and challenging at times. So far, we've had almost exclusively positive experiences with it.

[05:17] Myrna Gönnemann: You’re also working together with the Hand in Hand for International Talents project. Could you tell us a bit more about that?

[05:23] Tobias Bühne: Yes, it’s a really great project. It’s a joint initiative by the Chamber of Industry and Commerce and the Federal Employment Agency. The project was launched a few years ago because it became clear that companies in Germany are looking for experienced professionals. Back then, if you weren’t from the European Union, you could generally only work here if you had an EU Blue Card. The Blue Card comes with various requirements, but those requirements are primarily related to having a university degree that is recognized in Germany. For us as an agency, however, our focus isn’t necessarily on people who have just completed a degree. We’re looking for colleagues who already have professional experience. That’s where Hand in Hand for International Talents came in. We participated as one of the first agencies—possibly even the first agency in Düsseldorf or perhaps in Germany—to recruit employees from abroad who may only have a bachelor’s degree or no recognized university degree at all. The way it works is that the Employment Agency and the Chamber of Industry and Commerce cooperate with selected countries. In our case, the employee who still works with us today came from Vietnam and has been with us for six or seven years now. Local partners identify talents who are suitable for the German labor market, who want to come to Germany, and who have already completed some language training. They usually have German language skills at the A2 or B1 level. Their qualifications are documented, resumes are prepared, and the profiles are sent to companies. The candidates are screened thoroughly beforehand, so you receive a genuinely good selection of highly qualified people. If someone seems like a good professional fit, you conduct a video interview and can also assign a practical test. In Sui’s case, who came from Vietnam, it was basically love at first sight. We looked at two other candidates as well, but we knew immediately that he was the perfect match. Even today, he’s an outstanding colleague. Of course, even if someone has a B1 certificate abroad, they don’t really speak German fluently yet. That’s something they learn after arriving here. But that wasn’t a decisive factor for us. German is our agency language, but if someone doesn’t understand something, we simply switch to English. The Employment Agency and the Chamber of Industry and Commerce support the entire process. They help with qualification assessments, departure arrangements, and all the paperwork. And there’s a lot of paperwork. We also employ people from abroad who didn’t come through this program, and in those cases we have to handle all the bureaucracy ourselves. Every year it seems a little different, and sometimes I get the impression that nobody really knows exactly how the process works anymore. The program takes care of all of that. It’s not free—you do pay for the service—but essentially it’s an international recruitment agency backed by the Chamber of Industry and Commerce and the Employment Agency.

[09:24] Myrna Gönnemann: How long do these processes usually take when hiring international professionals? Are they significantly longer than recruiting domestic talent?

[09:37] Tobias Bühne: You definitely need to plan ahead. But then again, how long does it take to hire domestic talent? If you can’t find anyone, the process can theoretically last forever. With this program, it took us around nine months—from the point when we first met the candidate until Sui actually arrived and started working with us. You can probably do it faster, but I’d say you should allow at least six months of lead time. There are many things that need to be arranged. But even when hiring someone within Germany, you often have several months of lead time. It’s not as though someone is standing at your door the next morning asking what they should work on.

[10:24] Myrna Gönnemann: And it also has to be the right fit.

[10:26] Tobias Bühne: Exactly. That’s the key point. I’m perfectly happy to wait a long time for a new colleague if the fit is right. If the process took three years, that would be too long. But six to nine months is completely reasonable from a business planning perspective.

[10:44] Myrna Gönnemann: You mentioned that not all of your international employees came through the Hand in Hand program. Would you say the process is much easier through the project?

[11:00] Tobias Bühne: Every hire is a new challenge because the regulations keep changing. That said, things are moving in the right direction. For example, apprentices from non-EU countries can now start vocational training here much more easily than before. “Easily” is relative, of course. You still have to work with the immigration authorities and provide various documents proving income, housing arrangements, and so on. There are still hurdles, but they’re lower than they used to be. The barriers to hiring professionals from non-EU countries without a Blue Card have also been reduced. In the past, very high salary thresholds were required. Those thresholds have become more realistic. That doesn’t mean international hires are cheaper—far from it. These professionals still earn good salaries. It’s not a way to save money. But the process has become much easier. Still, every case has to be evaluated individually. What qualifications does the person have? What is their personal story? In the end, though, it can be made to work.

[12:05] Myrna Gönnemann: You’ve already mentioned some of the hurdles. Is bureaucracy the biggest challenge, or what would you describe as the biggest obstacle when recruiting international talent?

[12:17] Tobias Bühne: I think bureaucracy is simply bureaucracy. We deal with it in many different areas. You get used to it. For me, that’s not actually the biggest issue. The bigger challenge is everything surrounding relocation. When someone comes from abroad, they need a place to live. And in Düsseldorf, finding housing is extremely difficult. Trying to secure an apartment from another country is almost impossible. So the greatest effort for me is making sure that a new colleague has somewhere to stay. That’s by far the biggest challenge.

[13:07] Myrna Gönnemann: Did you solve that by looking in nearby cities?

[13:12] Tobias Bühne: Partly, yes. But in the beginning, you often have to rely on shared apartments because the barriers are lower. For Sui, I’m sure I contacted around 70 shared apartments. And it wasn’t as if we ended up having lots of options to choose from. It’s difficult. Really difficult. There are prejudices. They exist. And if the candidate had to manage the search entirely alone, despite their own efforts, it probably wouldn’t work in many cases. ,That’s why support from the employer is incredibly important—or you simply need a lot of luck. And I think when someone decides to leave their entire life behind and move 10,000 kilometers away to a completely new country, it’s discouraging if they immediately encounter resistance at such a fundamental level.

[14:22] Tobias Bühne: Our first shared experience is usually me picking them up from the airport and driving straight to the residents’ registration office. Then we sit there for two hours. That creates an incredible bond. mBut honestly, it’s not exactly a great welcome. After that, we go to the bank to open an account because without one, you can hardly do anything. So no, it’s not particularly easy. And I don’t think we can really call ourselves a welcoming culture yet. Germany is moving in the right direction, but we often assume that everyone wants to come here. The reality is different. If people are highly qualified, they can work anywhere in the world. They don’t have to come to Germany. Yet we have very little infrastructure to support them when they arrive. We could make things much easier, especially when it comes to temporary housing options for people who want to build a future here, earn a good salary, and pay taxes. But as an employer, you’re largely left alone to deal with these challenges. Likewise, language support remains an issue. The integration courses that exist are generally only offered during working hours. The moment someone has a job, they’re practically excluded from participating. And you can’t hire someone and then tell them to spend six hours a day in an integration course for six months while working two hours and still receiving a full salary. That simply isn’t realistic. Our colleagues are highly motivated and often attend language classes several times a week, depending on their starting level, but I still think the system falls short.

[16:27] Tobias Bühne: People who are not yet employed can participate in these programs, and many of them do—sometimes because they have to, sometimes because they genuinely want to. But people who are already working simply can’t take advantage of these opportunities. The same applies to apprentices. If an apprentice comes from Morocco, for example, they may struggle in vocational school—not because they lack the professional skills, but because of the language barrier. Officially, support programs exist, but in practice things often look very different. Classes get canceled, tutoring sessions don’t take place regularly, and so on. There’s still a lot of room for improvement, although things are moving in the right direction.

[17:10] Myrna Gönnemann: What kind of support would you like to see from the government when it comes to integrating employees from abroad?

[17:17] Tobias Bühne: First of all, I believe that whether someone comes to Germany and accepts a job here should primarily be a matter between that person and the employer. I don’t really see why this process needs to be accompanied by such an enormous amount of paperwork and so many hurdles. My view is simple: if someone wants to come here, receives a good salary, and both sides want the employment relationship to happen, then it should be possible. At the end of the day, that person pays taxes, contributes to society, and becomes part of the workforce. That’s one aspect I don’t fully understand—why we still have so many barriers in place. The second point is housing support, which I already mentioned. And of course, language training and integration programs would be extremely helpful. Integration is about more than language alone. People often come from completely different cultural backgrounds. I think it’s fantastic when people genuinely want to integrate, and all of my colleagues do. For example, Sui went skiing for the first time after coming here. Before that, he had never even seen snow. I think those experiences are wonderful. I’m not saying that ski lessons should be publicly funded, but there are certainly many opportunities to support integration more effectively.

[18:43] Myrna Gönnemann: You already mentioned that one of the first experiences was sitting together at the registration office. How do you create a successful onboarding process and help people integrate into the team?

[18:57] Tobias Bühne: That’s a good question. Ultimately, it’s very much a team effort. There’s only so much I can do personally. Of course, I’m always available and usually in a good mood, which certainly helps. But integration depends largely on the team. We have a very detailed onboarding process, and it’s exactly the same for everyone, regardless of where they come from. But true integration only happens within the team itself. You can’t force it. Fortunately, it has always worked very well for us. And you have to remember that when someone comes here voluntarily and says, “I want to build my future here,” they bring a completely different level of motivation than someone who is here for other reasons.

[19:41] Myrna Gönnemann: Looking back over the last few years, would you take the same path again, or is there anything you would do differently?

[19:48] Tobias Bühne: I think you always have to look at the current labor market situation. Overall, yes, I would absolutely do it again. With the knowledge we have today, it’s much easier to bring people here and integrate them successfully. The political framework has improved as well. I would make the same decision again. In the beginning, there was probably a certain amount of personal ambition involved. I wanted to prove that it could be done. And it was worth it. When colleagues have been working with us for almost ten years, I’d say the effort definitely paid off. Today, things are a bit different because the labor market is changing again. But my approach remains the same: I focus on qualifications. If I have to overcome additional hurdles to hire the right person, then so be it. However, one thing is important. In Germany, it’s common to say, “Let’s see how things go during the probation period.” When someone has moved halfway across the world for a job, you need to think differently. You should already be convinced that the collaboration is very likely to work. Of course, you can never know everything in advance. And it’s not always one-sided. Sometimes things don’t work out because of us, and perhaps the person would be happier somewhere else. That can happen. But if someone leaves their entire life behind and we later tell them, “Sorry, this isn’t what we expected,” they will often end up returning home. That’s a huge step for them. And we have to take that into account for social and human reasons.

[21:23] Myrna Gönnemann: And also for moral reasons. There’s a responsibility involved.

[21:26] Tobias Bühne: Absolutely. And we also have to be honest: it doesn’t always work out. We once had an employee from India who arrived, stayed for three days, and then simply left. That happens too. It was his own decision that this wasn’t the path he wanted to pursue. Nothing bad had happened. He just disappeared. That was a very unusual situation. But you have to factor that possibility in as well. Then again, there are also people in Germany who sign an employment contract and never show up on their first day.

[22:04] Myrna Gönnemann: How many international employees do you currently have?

[22:07] Tobias Bühne: We’re currently a team of 17 people, and nine of them have an international background.

[22:20] Myrna Gönnemann: That’s quite a number.

[22:22] Tobias Bühne: Yes, it’s a truly international team.

[22:23] Myrna Gönnemann: How do you see the current labor market? What has changed?

[22:26] Tobias Bühne: There are many factors at play. On the one hand, we have a difficult economic situation. Many agencies have gone out of business, repositioned themselves, changed their areas of expertise, or downsized. And then there’s the whole AI topic, which is also a major factor. Many agencies are rethinking their staffing needs because of it. Remote work is another important aspect. Hiring is no longer limited by geography. I can recruit employees from anywhere. That has changed things significantly and reshuffled the cards. On the one hand, that’s a very positive development. It’s not healthy when you simply can’t find any employees at all. As far as the domestic labor market is concerned, I don’t think it’s a problem that employees have strong negotiating power. But ideally, both sides should be able to enter into a constructive dialogue and benefit from the relationship. I feel like we’re moving back toward that point now. We’re receiving better-quality applications again. Part of that is because working models have become much more flexible—not just at our agency, but across the digital agency industry as a whole. I know many people who live in places like Mallorca or somewhere else entirely and work remotely from there without any problems. That wasn’t really possible five years ago. So the labor market has changed considerably. That’s why it’s difficult for me to say whether international talent is currently an urgent necessity for us. My position remains the same: qualifications come first. Then you decide whether you’re willing to accept the language barrier during the initial period or not. That’s really the key question.

[24:23] Myrna Gönnemann: How difficult is it to assess someone's qualifications from the beginning? And I mean that regardless of whether we're talking about international professionals or domestic candidates. Usually, the first meeting happens in person. For international candidates, that’s often not possible because the entire relocation process comes later. How much more difficult is it to evaluate qualifications when you haven’t met someone face-to-face beforehand?

[24:51] Tobias Bühne: Six or seven years ago, you could simply give people a practical test and get a fairly good impression. Even then, you never knew for sure whether they had completed it entirely on their own. Today, in the age of AI, those tests have largely lost their value. I think the most important thing is to communicate very clearly to international candidates that they need to be honest with us. Tell us what you can do and what you can’t do. It’s perfectly fine to have gaps in your knowledge. Nobody has to know everything. The goal isn’t simply to get hired at all costs. Of course, from the candidate’s perspective, getting the job matters. And of course, we’re happy to find new employees. But we need to be honest with each other. Because if you claim to have skills that you don’t actually possess, your time here will be very short, simply because we started from the wrong assumptions. That needs to be communicated very clearly. Fortunately, I have to say that this has worked extremely well for us. We’ve never had anyone pretending to be something they weren’t.

[25:50] Myrna Gönnemann: I think if you approach the process from the beginning by saying, “This is what we expect, and honesty is the foundation of our collaboration,” then the whole conversation naturally becomes different. It creates a completely different recruitment process.

[26:08] Tobias Bühne: Exactly. And we can honestly say that we have a very family-oriented culture, even though we’re highly international. Some employees have been working with us for more than twenty years. It’s very important that our colleagues know what they can expect from us as an agency. And we also want to know what we can expect from them. We don’t want to build castles in the air. That’s incredibly important and has to be communicated clearly. I also have the feeling that this is something the Hand in Hand for International Talents program emphasizes very well during the selection process. As I said, we’ve had exclusively positive experiences so far.

[26:47] Myrna Gönnemann: Do you have any advice for other companies that are currently facing the challenge of finding qualified professionals?

[26:53] Tobias Bühne: Yes. I think the Hand in Hand program is excellent. If you’re not yet familiar with this topic, I would definitely recommend making use of it. Of course, there’s a fee involved, but it’s not particularly high, and you receive a tremendous amount of support in return. That support should not be underestimated. I would absolutely take advantage of it. The alternative is to learn everything yourself, but because the process seems to change every year, it’s difficult to give general advice. What I can say is this: When you hire a good colleague from abroad, stay in close contact. Offer support. Work closely together from the very beginning—even before they arrive in Germany. And once they do arrive, pick them up, guide them through the first steps, and accompany them during the initial phase. After that, things usually develop naturally. But those first experiences create a strong bond. There’s a sense of gratitude and genuine interest in one another. And once that human connection is established, everything becomes much easier.

[27:59] Myrna Gönnemann: I think that’s a fantastic closing statement. Thank you so much for your time and for being here today. This was a wonderful conversation, and I hope we’ll have the opportunity to continue it again sometime.

[28:09] Tobias Bühne: Yes, absolutely. I’d be happy to. Thank you.

[28:10] Myrna Gönnemann: Thank you very much.

[28:11] Tobias Bühne: Bye.

[28:11] Myrna Gönnemann: Bye.